Lauren Oyler on Poetry, Attention and Not Going Home

00:00:00: I want to present you at least briefly.

00:00:02: So Lauren Oiler was born in the nineteen nineties.

00:00:05: At the beginning.

00:00:07: In the nineteen nineties.

00:00:09: Nineteen ninety.

00:00:13: In a place in a place called Hurricane West Virginia where you grew up just at the edge of the Appalachian Mountains a region that is today infamous for its descent into poverty and A drug epidemic?

00:00:31: No, it's true.

00:00:32: And also serious.

00:00:35: So Lauren made her way out and up.

00:00:40: She's an acclaimed critic.

00:00:41: It's true.

00:00:41: She's very hard to get.

00:00:43: She's too expensive for us because she's writing for the New Yorker Harpers Magazine, London Review of Books, and you go on.

00:00:50: You should go and buy her essay, Collection No Judgment.

00:00:53: It was published in... ...two thousand and twenty-four.

00:00:57: I want to tell one anecdote.

00:01:00: not to embarrass you, but I think I can tell this about Lauren and Berlin.

00:01:04: Why is Lauren and Berlin?

00:01:06: Because she befriended or even fell in love with a guide of a pop crawl.

00:01:13: Yes.

00:01:14: That's

00:01:14: true.

00:01:15: So Lauren has been on a noble mission of love for a long time.

00:01:21: And that is also something that inspires in her triptych on not going home.

00:01:27: that she publishes so proudly with Berlin Review.

00:01:30: What did you say that I'm on?

00:01:31: What kind of noble... What for love?

00:01:34: How did I... She's on a noble mission of love.

00:01:37: A noble mission of love, yeah.

00:01:38: And that's also something that inspires in her trip to...

00:01:41: Okay.

00:01:43: I like to use that as a blurb when the poetry collection comes

00:01:47: out.

00:01:50: Hi, I'm Tobias Habakuan.

00:01:52: You're listening to Berlin Review.

00:01:57: In December, we published our fifth reader, which includes three poems from the writer and critic, Lauren Euler.

00:02:06: This conversation was recorded at the DAID gallery in Berlin, where Lauren read some of the poems.

00:02:14: Thank you very much for that introduction.

00:02:16: I'm very happy to be in the new issue of the Berlin Review.

00:02:21: Despite what Tobias says, actually, you know, a little bit difficult to publish poetry after publishing only prose for my entire adult life, which as Tobias established has been quite short.

00:02:33: I was only born in nineteen ninety.

00:02:37: But, you know, I said, look, I think that if you can put, like, a half-naked guy next to them, like, I'll feel more comfortable doing it.

00:02:49: So, yeah, I'm gonna...

00:02:50: She's referring to the photograph.

00:02:51: Referring to the Wolfgang Tillman's photo from twenty-twelve, which is illustrating my pictures.

00:02:58: Switching my copy.

00:02:59: Switching your copy.

00:03:00: So, I have three questions, Lauren, but before I ask them, I want to ask you to read two of the three poems.

00:03:08: not to give away everything because we still want people to buy their copy.

00:03:13: Okay, so these are two poems about a common Berlin experience.

00:03:19: Please go.

00:03:21: I just want to talk.

00:03:24: I've got so much time, but I wanted hours, so I took them from tomorrow and woke up wishing I had borrowed more, although we talked till two or four.

00:03:35: Each night I smudge moths between my fingers, but the next more futile goths flirt by warning of the future.

00:03:42: Children will grow up to eat our clothes.

00:03:45: We don't want to talk about books and movies anymore.

00:03:48: We want to know what is the craziest sex we've had and what is the worst thing we still think about.

00:03:52: and why are some of us so obsessed with redecoration?

00:03:57: One of these days a phase will last forever and now we want it to be this one or will die or worse.

00:04:04: the person we don't expect will.

00:04:07: A Josh we thought would hang around.

00:04:10: I hate sleeping when I'm with friends, so we cashed in at ten a.m.

00:04:13: for a story about our mothers and bargained another eleven for a song the man I'm dating made.

00:04:18: It's pathetic to hate going home alone, and that's why I try so hard to stay.

00:04:24: We ran out on time, but I would have traded the day.

00:04:31: This one is called Sphiners, and I wrote this three years ago.

00:04:36: During, yes, yes, we can talk.

00:04:38: You didn't tell me.

00:04:39: Yeah, I had a brief period three years ago when I was happy for about three months.

00:04:46: And during this time, I wrote a handful of ballads.

00:04:49: And for those of you who don't know poetic forms, a ballad is a rhyming poem that has either usually an A, B, C, B rhyming structure, so math.

00:05:04: So I wrote several of these rhyming poems, and this is one of them, and it's called Svinars, which refers to the bar on Hermann Strasse.

00:05:16: It was meant to be a calm one, a couple beers in chat, but Sam requested Nostrum, so we resigned ourselves to that.

00:05:24: The first topic was rousing, the second even more, but then the car pulled meekly up, and I felt the need to score.

00:05:32: A guy I have a crush on who works behind the bar was wearing a white tank top as hot guys often are.

00:05:39: I first saw him at Bergheim where he also hotly works and all the people fawning must be among the perks.

00:05:45: I made eyes in his direction and tried to crack a joke until someone gave a gesture and then... We did more coke.

00:05:53: The next topics were stirring, trendy new identities.

00:05:56: If phone sex counts as anything and our dumb lost virginities.

00:06:00: The place was very crowded.

00:06:02: We could not help but smoke.

00:06:04: The hours skipped and hopped for us.

00:06:06: Of course, we did more coke.

00:06:08: This guy and I touched shoulders.

00:06:10: He's really very hot.

00:06:12: We talked about if Germans like too much to take a shot.

00:06:16: At four, the bar was closing.

00:06:18: It was time for us to leave.

00:06:20: But... A dismal mood descended from which I asked, reprieve.

00:06:25: We knew we shouldn't risk it.

00:06:27: One more bar would just provoke, but I was sad in thinking that we should do more coke.

00:06:33: Inside, we quickly realized we'd made a big mistake.

00:06:37: We were out of drugs and cigarettes and should no longer be awake.

00:06:40: From there, we swiftly parted.

00:06:42: Fast down the hill, I flew.

00:06:44: That guy, he's got a girlfriend.

00:06:47: I guess I kind of always knew.

00:06:52: Thanks, and a round of applause.

00:07:01: Thank you, Lauren.

00:07:04: We wanted to keep it short and an upbeat.

00:07:09: So I have three questions.

00:07:11: The first is why poetry?

00:07:14: Did you mean that in like a personal narrative or in a sort of sociocultural moment?

00:07:21: We can

00:07:21: start with a personal and then go into the sociocultural.

00:07:24: Well, like I said, I had a brief period of flirtation with poetry a couple of years ago when I was in a good mood.

00:07:31: And then in the spring, I finished a big horrible project and I took a break six weeks that I didn't open my computer.

00:07:42: This is a

00:07:42: luxury I cannot afford.

00:07:44: Well,

00:07:44: you didn't suffer the way that I did either.

00:07:48: So I took a break.

00:07:49: And during that time, again, I became briefly happy.

00:07:54: And I had a lot of free time.

00:07:56: And when you are like... I had a lot of positive creative energy as opposed to negative creative energy, which is what usually fuels my prose writing.

00:08:09: My criticism, my novel.

00:08:12: The thing about poems is that they don't take very long to write.

00:08:20: You can just take a moment, they're anecdotal, they're occasional, especially in the American tradition of poetry, which some people may be familiar with, but not... But some of the most beloved American poets who I grew up reading and studied in university write, like, you'll be describing an anecdote, you know, you'll be describing an occasion, you'll just have a feeling and you'll, like, creative inspiration strikes you and you can just turn it into a poem.

00:08:47: And once you get into this register, they just come out, like, you could just do it.

00:08:53: every day and then you experience a delusion that you've been productive because you've created an entire artistic work by like eleven thirty in the morning and you're like I'm done for today.

00:09:05: So I had like a phase of writing these poems and I was also reading a lot of poetry because I got fed up with criticism and I got fed up with contemporary literature.

00:09:17: so I turned to I guess for lack of a better word, like a more artistic relationship to language, I guess.

00:09:28: I feel like every time when a critic wants to do a slightly different piece, they're going to write about the renaissance of poetry, which has had a lot of renaissances in the last decade.

00:09:43: I don't really want to write about that.

00:09:44: Do you think that's even true?

00:09:47: Well, I do notice more poetry around in the publications.

00:09:51: I notice more people talking about it.

00:09:54: I do think that there's a very stupid explanation for this, which is that, again, it's really short.

00:10:01: And you can read them, and they work well on social media.

00:10:04: People are sharing them, and there was a... an interesting, if I think incorrect or wrong article in the Yale review a couple of months ago.

00:10:12: And what review?

00:10:14: The Yale review.

00:10:14: Okay.

00:10:15: By this poet Maggie Milner about this kind of sentimental, cheesy poet, Mary Oliver, whose poems you may have noticed circulating on social media because they're incredibly sentimental and, you know, like, they're like the Instagram of poetry.

00:10:36: And I also noticed that like on Instagram or Twitter or something like.

00:10:41: if there's a great poet like someone like Franco Hera or like, you know like even like Heinrich Heiner or any great poet, think of like a really great, even Milton, they can do this to Milton, like.

00:10:52: you'll find that these people will take the worst line of poetry that they ever wrote, like.

00:10:58: somehow Franco Hero wrote like, love is a cloud, and then they'll be like, so true, Franco Hero said love is a cloud.

00:11:05: And so I do think that there is a kind of superficial vogue for poetry.

00:11:11: Do I think that's good?

00:11:12: No, of course not.

00:11:14: But if it's in the ether, it kind of inspires you.

00:11:19: And like I said, it's not the first time I wrote poems.

00:11:21: I also wrote a lot of poetry when I was twenty-three living here and again had a lot of free time, but was less happy.

00:11:28: So it's not unprecedented for me, but it's never something I thought about doing, like

00:11:35: publishing.

00:11:36: We also publish in the reader.

00:11:38: I mean, I had three questions were completely.

00:11:42: That's

00:11:42: what I told you.

00:11:43: what happened.

00:11:43: And you were like, but what about this question?

00:11:45: I'll get to it.

00:11:47: In The Reader, we publish a review of, by Miriam Stoney, of the four first books in the poetry list, they call it, of Fitzgerald.

00:11:57: And we had to script an Instagram post about it.

00:12:00: And we set something along the lines of, after establishing prose hegemony, the taste makers of Fitzgerald.

00:12:10: are now doing poetry.

00:12:12: Do you think that's significant?

00:12:14: Yeah, I mean, I think it's good.

00:12:16: And I also think that in the UK, where Fitzgerald is based, there is a bit more of a kind of active or continuous poetry culture.

00:12:26: Whereas in the US, I think there was much more in the in the twenty tens.

00:12:31: There was much more of this idea that poetry is a niche at best.

00:12:36: Right.

00:12:36: And it's something that people who go to MFA's do.

00:12:39: and then they get teaching positions and publish in kind of obscure literary journals that nobody actually reads.

00:12:47: Whereas the favorite poetry series in the UK has always been quite robust, and there's still kind of more of a culture on that, and there are lots of reasons for that, which we don't really need to get into.

00:12:58: But I also think that Jacques, the publisher of Fitzgeraldos, is quite... Kenny and smart and it you know if he's publishing it means that like something's happening, right?

00:13:09: It's not like he's always making things happen.

00:13:13: He's

00:13:14: he's

00:13:16: He's got his ear to the ground that guy.

00:13:18: So it is exciting like it is it is.

00:13:21: it is good that they're doing it because it will like generate more of this.

00:13:26: Yeah, ambivalent, but mostly good interest in poetry, right and and you do Like, you know, Ryan Ruby's not here, but many of you will know Ryan Ruby writes a lot about poetry.

00:13:38: Did his long... Contributed

00:13:39: to Berlin Review also?

00:13:40: Of course, did his long poem, Context Collapse, which he published.

00:13:44: So, it's not like it came out of nowhere.

00:13:46: Yeah.

00:13:47: I mean, I should mention also that the German poetry scene, Lyric, has been very alive for the last ten years.

00:13:56: So, I mean, there's really... Why?

00:13:58: It's not a joke.

00:13:58: There is a... Well, I guess for the reasons that you enumerated, it's like a... I don't know, I think everyone loves a piece of literature that is both relatively fast to consume and ambiguous.

00:14:17: Well, I also don't want to overstate what I also like about writing poetry, especially coming from... like writing for American magazines and writing these really long prose works is that in order to enjoy a poem, you do have to read it many times, right?

00:14:33: And you do have to consider every word choice.

00:14:36: And also, this kind of feels like a small point, but actually not.

00:14:40: The puns are really important.

00:14:43: I love to make a pun.

00:14:45: And sometimes if I write a ten thousand word article, you know, that... People are not appreciating the pun as much.

00:14:53: Whereas if there's seventy-five words on the page, you know, you're reading it a couple times and then you realize, it's also a pleasure for the reader.

00:14:59: You know, my experience as a reader is when I realize something has a double meaning or it has multiple valences.

00:15:07: It's a very profound experience of art, I think, like a mini, a little treat.

00:15:12: Don't want to just say odds because it's short and we're all stupid now because of our phones.

00:15:16: You know that I don't.

00:15:16: I don't think that that that totally gets at it like.

00:15:19: of course there are real joys in poetry as well.

00:15:21: I want to have an allegoric reading or allegoric question to To your poems the subject matter of your poems.

00:15:31: I want to read them again.

00:15:32: I don't think they are very ambiguous

00:15:35: At

00:15:35: least the part of spiners.

00:15:38: So, Lauren, after having listened to your, what did some of you say, tag a leader?

00:15:44: Yeah, tag a leader.

00:15:46: Post a hedonistic.

00:15:49: tag a leader.

00:15:51: The question I had thought up was, is there a remedy to the loneliness epidemic?

00:15:59: Well, the thing about these poems, right, they're about staying up all night doing drugs with your friends.

00:16:05: This is, of course, fictional.

00:16:07: I've never done drugs, but I've heard about it.

00:16:10: And the loneliness that is in the poems, which you're, I think, responding to is not about what the articles about the loneliness epidemics say.

00:16:23: Those are talking about people who have no friend.

00:16:26: This is about the human soul, which is always like... the void, which is always lonely.

00:16:34: And the taglid, or the albad, is traditionally about separating from a lover in the morning.

00:16:44: And what does Romeo say in Romeo and Juliet?

00:16:47: He says, More, oh god, I can't remember it.

00:16:52: It's like more and more light, like more and more woes, right?

00:16:55: Like the light, the light come and the woes come, right?

00:16:57: The night lasts forever and then you have to face reality, which is we're all fundamentally alone.

00:17:02: So I mean, philosophically, we have not yet come up with a solution to the loneliness epidemic at the core of our beings, but practically... you could get drunk and do drugs with your friends, I think is a good solution.

00:17:23: Or coming to the Berlin Review readings, right?

00:17:28: That's the solution to the loneliness epidemic.

00:17:31: I forgot that you told me you were gonna ask me that question and I had no idea what.

00:17:36: You did well,

00:17:37: I would say.

00:17:41: So, the last and final question, Lauren, it's a little theoretic, but... I'm going to read it

00:17:50: out.

00:17:50: Let's

00:17:51: do it.

00:17:52: Poetry is often seen as elevating, mysterious, and poetic prose, which we've also done as prosaic, dire, and always political.

00:18:04: Do you agree?

00:18:05: Well, I mean, I was just talking to Didier Fassant in the back about poetry in Gaza and Palestine.

00:18:12: So of course, poetry can be political.

00:18:14: I think there's a long.

00:18:15: I think you're constructing.

00:18:19: They're not strawmen exactly, but people who don't read very much poetry or prose say those things.

00:18:25: And of course, there's a long history of political poetry, and you can also write a delightful little prose work.

00:18:32: that is just about some guy you met at the grocery store who was weird to you.

00:18:38: And I think both of those things are great.

00:18:39: I think it may seem like because there are more... technical decisions that one makes in a poem.

00:18:50: Like, why are you making a line break here?

00:18:54: What is the effect of the rhyme?

00:18:58: What is the purpose of a pun?

00:19:01: What is the purpose of using one of these really difficult... Kind of antiquated forms like a villain now or like a sonnet or or like why are you writing in heroic couplets or something?

00:19:13: Because they're all these kind of technical old seemingly old-fashioned decisions that one has to make when one is writing a poem.

00:19:20: it may seem that it is kind of elevated right but Every every decision that an artist makes is like an opportunity to like subvert those assumptions.

00:19:35: so

00:19:36: I want to place a little cliffhanger here, because you read only two out of three poems.

00:19:40: And the third one, which we kept secret, is not about the guy you met at the grocery store, but about a hot dad with his baby girl.

00:19:51: you met in Deutsche Bahn uptime.

00:19:54: Deutsche Bahn, yeah, because Tobias asked me if I had poems that related to Berlin or Germany, and I said, yes, I have three.

00:20:02: Two are about staying up all night, and one is about the I.C.E.

00:20:07: And so you'll have to buy the book to find more.

00:20:11: And to read and reread them again.

00:20:14: Thank you, Lauren.

00:20:15: Thank you.

00:20:16: We wanted to keep it brief, and so...

00:20:18: We have.

00:20:20: That was that.

00:20:28: That was Lauren Euler.

00:20:30: You can find all three of her poems in Berlin Review Reader V and at blnreview.de.

00:20:39: If you like this conversation and you'd like to support our work, the best way to do so is by subscribing.

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00:20:51: Our audio producer is Caitlin Roberts.

00:20:54: If you enjoyed this episode, we'd appreciate if you subscribe or share a positive review.

00:21:00: It helps

00:21:00: a lot.

00:21:02: My name is Tobias Haberkorn, editor of Berlin Review.

00:21:05: Thanks for listening and until next time.