Collien Fernandes and Christian Ulmen and the Problem With German Humor

00:00:00: You start again,

00:00:14: that was a

00:00:16: bit

00:00:24: weird.

00:00:31: Colleen, who has been a major figure in German TV since the early two thousands had been battling against the propagation of deep-fake porn imagery for

00:00:38: self for years.

00:00:40: This

00:00:40: spring this battle took an unexpected turn when she said in a report published by

00:00:45: Der Spiegel

00:00:46: that her ex husband Christian Ullmann had stolen her identity created fake social media accounts and engaged in sexually charged online

00:00:54: conversations with

00:00:55: dozens of men in her name.

00:00:57: She also said

00:00:58: he physically assaulted.

00:01:01: The case has ignited a national outcry about digital sexual violence and forced the cultural reckoning with Ullman's style of provocative misogynist humor.

00:01:11: Today, my co-host Lauren

00:01:13: Euler and I discussed

00:01:14: the political and cultural fallout of the case... ...and how Colleen's strong public response signals her shift in how women are expected to navigate public and private

00:01:23: abuse.

00:01:24: Enjoy this show!

00:01:30: Did you even know these people?

00:01:31: Like, do you have any connection to this world of German TV.

00:01:35: Um I don't have that much of a connection to the World Of German TV though i also Don't Have That Much Of A Connection To The World Of American Television At This Point.

00:01:43: But I was at a house party, i guess like month ago and a German friend who has a german wife were on the balcony talking about this.

00:01:53: And they summarized the case as these two very famous german media personalities Christian Ulman and his uh Olmen excuse me...I was corrected by my german friend um about the pronunciation of this.

00:02:09: And his now ex-wife, Colleen Fernandez is a very beautiful woman in the German media.

00:02:15: Has been sexualized quite early in her career and for the last you know ten or so years has struggled because people have been making deep fake images of her... Making um fake pornographic images of Her.

00:02:29: People have been doing this kind of like digital harassment that it's becoming more and more common uh For women in The Public Eye.

00:02:36: And she had, you know struggled with this for a long time and She didn't know who was doing it.

00:02:42: She never knew Who is Doing It.

00:02:43: in twenty-twenty four?

00:02:44: She made A two part documentary With Sedef about trying to figure out who Was making these deep fake images and videos of her but she couldn't Figure it Out.

00:02:53: and at the end Of This Documentary She Files a complaint In Berlin like a legal Complaint Against Persons Unknown right.

00:03:02: so This, this is how it was presented to me.

00:03:04: And then I guess that day of this house party that I was at or the day before It came out That she Was accusing her now ex-husband Christian Olman.

00:03:16: Oh god Olmen likes.

00:03:18: She's accusing him Of participating in Her online harassment by making fake social media accounts posing as her and Corresponding with various men and sending them.

00:03:32: what she says are images of women who look like her in various sexual acts.

00:03:38: So at the time, I was like...I don't know how these people are.

00:03:42: and then i went home and looked it up And realized that I did know who Christian Olmen is.

00:03:47: He's a star for this film Herr Lehmann from two thousand three, which I watched when i was being more aggressive about improving my German.

00:03:57: Yeah

00:03:57: um

00:03:58: so i was like oh i know who that guy is but i think you can probably explain a little bit more about his significance to Germany this year.

00:04:03: yeah the movie you mentioned Herr Lehmann by Lerner Hausmann it's from two-thousand and three.

00:04:07: yes uh and i think Ulmen's career in german tv started a little earlier than that with MTV in London.

00:04:14: at a time when MTV was starting to broadcast in Europe from london The twenty-year old guy was casted and spoke on this MTV show with a very thick, heavy, exaggerated German accent which is part of his personality.

00:04:33: And Ullmann has had ever since the two thousands thriving career in this ecosystem as has had Colleen.

00:04:43: I think they got married in two thousand and eleven or twelve so there were like perfect a perfect couple of that universe.

00:04:51: So he came as this huge shock, that she's accusing Ullman... ...of being actually the main driver behind

00:05:01: it- But is she accusing him of doing

00:05:05: all these things?

00:05:05: No not

00:05:06: just participating and doing some things right.

00:05:10: there

00:05:10: are several layers to what she has now coming out about to the press.

00:05:17: She's been, as you mentioned publicly advocating against deep fake pornography for years.

00:05:27: The Spiegel report that went into detail of what she is now accusing her husband of contains several other elements For example also physical violence that Oldman had exerted and in at Christmas, while they were both living in Mallorca for a couple of years.

00:05:45: At that point and then traveling back to Hamburg And are supposed to meet the in-law like his family?

00:05:52: He reads an interview she gave.

00:05:55: Then he suddenly makes this confession That you know actually I was one who created all these fake social media profiles Did chats and email exchanges In your name with, uh...with men who were like sexually interested in you.

00:06:14: Yeah well what she says happened is that they were at this hotel in Hamburg and he was reading an interview with her where she says or someone says that she filed the criminal complaint right?

00:06:24: Yes With Berlin.

00:06:26: And She Says That He Freaked Out And Thought He Was Gonna Go To Jail.

00:06:31: So This Led Him to Confess Allegedly Right?

00:06:35: And What He Confessed Is Not That He Made Any Deep Fake videos.

00:06:39: It's that he had created a bunch of fake accounts in her name and corresponded with various people as her becoming increasingly sexual, right?

00:06:47: Exactly!

00:06:48: And she is like what the

00:06:49: fuck?!

00:06:50: Exactly!!

00:06:52: I think we have to understand how big scandal this was now because Splash dismayed IN the German media scene, because Ullmann was so well connected.

00:07:03: He had worked with almost everyone in this sort of like entertainment scene and it's a moment where everybody is now watching very closely how people would also take their distances from him.

00:07:19: And then the whole conversation quickly moved to the political sphere.

00:07:25: Fernandez also underlined that bringing her case against ex-husband in Spain, for example would be much more advantageous because legislation on these topics is much less in Germany.

00:07:39: So the last three weeks we've seen public demonstrations that focus on making the law with regard to digital sexual abuse, much more severe.

00:07:52: And the German Justice Minister came out last week also prosecute this type of case.

00:08:08: Well, yeah also she says you know the reason that she decided to come

00:08:11: out about it

00:08:12: and I listened to a podcast where a couple of the presenters were criticizing her little bit for making this public or questioning whether she should have made this public because they had a child.

00:08:23: um and the child would now know its father has done this but at their reason.

00:08:29: Colleen Fernandez said she's make-making public is like these specifically for this political reason right?

00:08:33: Because there are these loopholes for like specifically digital sexual harassment and violence.

00:08:39: And the loopholes need to be closed, right?

00:08:42: Exactly you know that legal considerations are of course very important but I was more interested in wanting this topic too how the culture and how the German culture reacts to these type situation and if Christian Ullmann as a public figure And as a figure who is really, really important and leading in the German especially comedy world.

00:09:10: How this would shake up this entire scene?

00:09:14: I think what's interesting or what lacking so far has sort of like understood the reception of The Case Is that very few people want to actually take the difficult look at his cultural production for last twenty years and try to make some analysis, if whether or not an if how in what we can say about like the connection between his public persona.

00:09:41: The type of humor that he produced for now twenty years And would know is why fist accusing him off?

00:09:47: The parallels between His various sort of like fictionalizing or fictionalized TV productions and this actual case are just so scary.

00:10:01: It's so easy to look at the public comedy persona that he was producing and then go, yes of course He would do something like this in real life.

00:10:13: And I think...and it is difficult you know jump To make especially for critics Like us.

00:10:22: But i think In this case its Just So Obvious That the type of humor that he was propagating is very, very deranged.

00:10:33: Very crass, extremely misogynist.

00:10:37: and why is this supposed to be funny?

00:10:40: Well I mean...I certainly don't know Why it's supposed to Be Funny.

00:10:44: Everything That i've seen Of him involves a slacker kind of bumbling man

00:10:54: who

00:10:55: situations crass.

00:10:57: unfortunate situations are coming at him from the outside.

00:11:03: And perhaps because he's a slacker and like not prepared, and like blameless initially right?

00:11:13: He definitely plays sort of like quote unquote common man which I think is also part Man, clearly.

00:11:23: I mean they've been women writing about jerks the TV series we're now talking About which started airing in two thousand and seventeen Which has Colleen Fernandez in it?

00:11:32: And Jerk's was celebrated.

00:11:36: It won three German comedy awards and what people praised about it and What i find so questionable and just like baffling or interesting as something we could analyze, is that it was reviewed and praised as subversive humor.

00:11:54: And the way in which it is subversives if it's very primitive or basic... In this episode both watched now to prepare for a session centered around Allman and his best friend Farid Yardim, who's actually a good friend of from childhood days.

00:12:15: And he was playing the sidekick in The Entire Show.

00:12:19: They're both married and their wives are friends... ...and Allman finds out that his wife AND his friend's wife AND HIS ex-wife

00:12:32: Which

00:12:32: is Colleen.

00:12:34: So these three women go to a masturbation class.

00:12:38: Yeah, okay.

00:12:39: I want to pause here just for a second because... Okay so when i started watching this right also we should say in jerks everyone is playing themselves or a version of themselfs right?

00:12:48: The Christian Omen's character name is christianne ,right?

00:12:51: Uh..I

00:12:52: think so yeah

00:12:53: and Colleen's characters' names

00:12:55: are Colleen Absolutely

00:12:56: So I don't know if anyone.

00:12:58: And plus there it really clear.

00:13:01: There sort of like overlay at the beginning that clearly states all of these based on real facts.

00:13:09: So the opposition of a usual

00:13:12: disclaimer, it's ironic.

00:13:14: so I start watching this episode which Tobias sent to me.

00:13:16: like he said watch this.

00:13:17: you know here is link and as my German fine its not that good when operating in your second language.

00:13:27: do i correct now?

00:13:29: The premise girlfriend or new wife is going to a masturbation's course with his ex-wife.

00:13:40: Now, I'm like does that have some kind of connotation?

00:13:43: That i not understanding... Like what.. What do you mean?

00:13:46: I've never heard of such thing!

00:13:47: No

00:13:47: it actually....

00:13:48: Like

00:13:49: what?!

00:13:50: There must be some kind translation issue here because It can't simply be that now.

00:13:56: no its worse than then.

00:13:58: the women go through this class which was presented as sort

00:14:02: Yoni.

00:14:04: Yes, like open your chakras whatever the sort of like very emancipated sex positive educator is there and then you know a bunch of things go down.

00:14:17: And and and allman's character together as his best friend.

00:14:21: they find out about this and they go actually to spy on The workshop session And then the women find out about it, they chase them down the staircase and have a fallout.

00:14:36: Then as a punishment you will now join me... ...and your other husband too!

00:14:43: You'll all come to our masturbation class together.

00:14:46: This is basically like the whole joke.

00:14:50: Yeah I mean this thing is funny for me?

00:14:56: I don't think it is.

00:14:56: You know, i don't like to traffic too much in my German stereotypes Like yeah you know?

00:15:01: I live here...I like living in Germany more or less um..i have some friends who are german.

00:15:06: It's like your not famous for- Some of the best friends are German.

00:15:09: Some of my best friends Are German Um but you guys aren' t famous For like Your sense Of-.

00:15:13: well you're Famous for your sense of humor But Not For Good Reasons

00:15:16: Right.

00:15:17: And so you encounter something like this and youre like.

00:15:21: Is This Serious Like?

00:15:24: I Like?

00:15:25: if there is a joke, um it Is just and I don't know.

00:15:29: It's supposed to love about this whole masturbation thing And he's like it plays also i think with A uh supposedly transgressive Body positivity?

00:15:42: It's not a problem To show sexual things on tv kind of Thing which i don't Know would maybe lend less well in an american setting.

00:15:50: The rest Of the series as Well is on that level.

00:15:54: Well, I think if we want to analyze the structure of this particular episode kind of more in depth The idea Is they are like.

00:16:03: you know?

00:16:03: The husbands aren't committing a crime right because it's not just there.

00:16:06: why mean your you shouldn't Like.

00:16:08: You should not like their doing voyeurism but like They're committing a Crime By spying On This masturbation Glass and Then Their Caught and instead of being punished for the crime, right?

00:16:24: They're violating.

00:16:25: Instead of being punished with a crime their punishment is they get to watch again.

00:16:30: you know what I mean like wish fulfillment that it's inherent in this episode And then idea that this is punishment.

00:16:38: yes maybe but also everyone should know someone who doing risky potentially criminal sexual behavior semi-obvious way, on some level wants to be caught and punished.

00:16:52: And this can easily be

00:16:53: eroticized.".

00:16:54: So the whole structure of this joke is like... Well

00:16:56: they get the gratification by the way at the end of the episode?

00:16:59: The gratification being punished by women.

00:17:01: you know what I mean.

00:17:02: it's just

00:17:03: too much!

00:17:04: Yeah.

00:17:04: so What I try to understand, you know if this is a type of humor.

00:17:09: Personally don't...I'm not a consumer for it like i would be bored If I hadn't wouldn't have to watch

00:17:15: this.

00:17:16: You don't

00:17:17: respect people who think its funny and actually just say It's Not Funny And People Who Think

00:17:21: It Is.

00:17:22: But I want To Understand the Mechanism Of Why Its Supposed How This Humor Actually Works The Problem That I Have join the course of those who say that Germans don't have humor.

00:17:37: I think there is German humor clearly, but it's

00:17:41: a little bit...

00:17:42: Okay thank you!

00:17:44: It's a Little Bit difficult to understand actually how it is funny and this specific kind of ...I would go.... You know i would say that uman's humor in the way he works.. There are some things stereotypically German in.

00:18:04: Ultimately, he plays a jerk.

00:18:07: Yeah?

00:18:08: So He's making a fool of himself but ultimately The joke is always on the others.

00:18:15: it's Always humor that sort of like kicks downwards he He performs this goofy guy But ultimately everything Is done to sort of Justify your show that he's just a normal man.

00:18:34: He did nothing wrong.

00:18:36: That's why it's important at the set up of so much.

00:18:38: this stuff is like, I'm just a Normal guy trying to do my best and all these crazy stuff keeps happening To me.

00:18:43: now my ex-wife And current girlfriend are going for a muster.

00:18:45: Butz Jons Kurs Like what?

00:18:48: This whole world is so topsy turvy You gotta get drunk A little bit or something.

00:18:52: Do you know

00:18:52: what i mean?

00:18:52: Yeah pushing it further in her lima.

00:18:56: The plot Of the film basically revolves around the character Christian woman plays, has a crush on the female crook.

00:19:07: And in an also maybe not uncharacteristically German way.

00:19:11: he has sort of like problems with expressing his feelings and you know courting The Woman.

00:19:16: He's Not able to do that so he becomes kind of passive aggressive about it Until a final scene or like the core seen of the movie happens in an in a k-bop shop at Kotposa tour where she Actually tells him I mean they had an affair together, but they not really together.

00:19:34: and then he Tells them that it's over.

00:19:36: Yeah And he launches into this anger fit Where he says no if there is anyone who Is allowed to say that?

00:19:44: It's over its me.

00:19:48: So he needs to assert power.

00:19:51: Yeah, ultimately

00:19:52: yeah.

00:19:53: and also I mean i think that the film so it's set in nineteen eighty nine right?

00:19:58: And its set like in Croatsburg It is this kind of important is quite passive and he's kind of blocked out like much of the world.

00:20:08: And he doesn't really pay attention even though there are signs, Like his parents I think they're like oh you know somethings happening in East Germany Something's happening at East Berlin.

00:20:16: Are we watching the news?

00:20:18: Nothing going on.

00:20:20: There was all this signaling that something bad will happen or something big is gonna happen.

00:20:25: You'll miss it because you live in a grungy slacker paradise where nothing matters to you for your life, right?

00:20:35: And then finally like this you know.

00:20:37: This ends in rupture and various ways including when the wall comes down and he's like drunk at the bar Right?

00:20:43: yeah Yeah

00:20:45: Maybe it's like we shouldn't be over.

00:20:48: We shouldn't overstress this and go so far as to say okay now In a film of two thousand three we have the psychogram Of Christian Oman and of potentially The guy who did all these things To his wife.

00:21:02: However, I think it's interesting to look at him as a sort of like archetype for certain German maleness.

00:21:11: And then that's part of the story?

00:21:12: Yeah!

00:21:13: Well there are two elements this right which is if you're an artist or some kind and your making certain kinds of art You playing over-and-over type of character The characters based on you A little bit Or...you have relationship with the actor.

00:21:30: I wrote an novel called Fake Accounts.

00:21:33: That's part of the reason why we're talking about this, because i'm interested in fake accounts.

00:21:36: um you like write a version of yourself.

00:21:38: that's not necessarily true but when you are playing this character or you inhabiting a certain persona?

00:21:43: Like...that necessarily like it changes you Because It is An Experience You Have!

00:21:49: Every experience you have Changes You And so..I think its important to say We're Not Arguing In Two Thousand Three Or When He Was A Douchebag MTV VJ or whatever.

00:22:00: All of this was like innate in him, right?

00:22:02: It's just that over time one gets more and more used to playing This character.

00:22:07: yeah And the character then it's become is if the characters always real its really a character That he plays but you just play it over and over

00:22:14: so it becomes a self-reinforcing.

00:22:17: Yeah, I think feedback loop between fiction and reality Right Like there's.

00:22:20: no There's No Lake separation like they're not.

00:22:23: that's false um But it also.

00:22:25: that also means that like You know, he didn't have to do this.

00:22:28: It's not like it was pre-destined either.

00:22:30: I think there is a little bit of discussion around... There are lots interviews where he talked about doing phone sex pretending to be woman when he was fourteen and calling sad guys.

00:22:41: Did you

00:22:41: say that in an interview?

00:22:42: Yes!

00:22:44: Years ago he did an interview with me saying oh when i was fourteen or fifteen would pretend to be women because my voice hadn't dropped yet.

00:22:49: so its pretty easy.

00:22:50: then talk to guy and tell him anything but got boring.

00:22:55: And then there's other things where certain jokes that he made, people would just be like oh this is prescient.

00:23:00: It was all their along it not out.

00:23:02: they're all along.

00:23:03: what happened?

00:23:04: He got used to more and more use of his idea or whatever Or has some impulses.

00:23:11: we don't know actually whats going on in the mind but at one point you take too far You cross a line right.

00:23:17: I think its important say or establish That theres nothing wrong with edgy humor unless it's like not funny or bad art.

00:23:27: Like there is nothing morally wrong with making fictional, or autofictional, or semi-fictional works in which things this occur right?

00:23:38: There's nothing wrong being a douchebag and movie!

00:23:42: We need to maintain the rights of artists play bad characters.

00:23:54: What is bad?

00:23:55: Is the crimes that he has alleged to have committed,

00:23:58: right?".

00:23:58: And there's an important distinction between those two things.

00:24:01: now what does it say about German men broadly?

00:24:04: maybe you can talk about since your a German man I don't know.

00:24:07: so

00:24:08: yeah.

00:24:08: but in going back to Olmen case Yeah

00:24:10: the Olmen Case yes

00:24:12: You have as early as twenty eleven or so twelve.

00:24:16: So he and Colleen had been married for year of two.

00:24:21: He's shooting this TV series that's called Who Wants to Fuck My Girlfriend, where the two protagonists position themselves as brokers of their girlfriends.

00:24:34: And there is a hotness contest between The Two Girlfriends or The Two Women and then the guy whose girlfriend has more you know suitors wins.

00:24:51: So he clearly, I mean, all men in his fictional world has clearly positioned himself.

00:24:59: He's played with the idea of being like a broker Of the hotness off His wife and we have this really uncanny extension of that into if the alleged facts are true The reality engaging in flirtatious and sexually explicit

00:25:23: chat, chat

00:25:24: etc.

00:25:25: divulging imagery of that is supposed to represent his wife?

00:25:29: And I mean we'll never get to the end of this question.

00:25:32: you know...to what extent it's the fiction prescient or predetermines whats gonna happen in real life.

00:25:43: This is an endless conversation that we've had at least since Harvey Weinstein forever, but what I found interesting as something else you said... You said provocative, crass, tasteless

00:25:56: etc.,

00:25:56: humor.. Is okay?

00:25:59: As long it's funny!

00:26:01: Yeah and

00:26:05: well also funny is a simple

00:26:06: term.

00:26:06: Funny Also is something that of course culturally constructed.

00:26:12: Um, what we believe is funny changes over time.

00:26:16: And I'm interested in the fact like why you watch jerks and I watched jerks now and were like this isn't even funny or even worse than who wants to fuck my girlfriend thing from the early two thousand and tens.

00:26:30: so Why was it funny?

00:26:31: In the first place while people thinking that's funny and why Is It Not Funny?

00:26:35: Now You know what,

00:26:38: how

00:26:38: have the standards changed?

00:26:40: I

00:26:40: want to know if Colleen Fernandez thought it was funny at that time.

00:26:43: Not in any accusatory way just like... ...I cannot imagine ever finding that funny right It's too... The issue with German humor is two direct Like.

00:27:03: it's like, oh but his pants are on backwards.

00:27:05: Do you know what I mean?

00:27:06: You're okay with who cares if his pants or unbackwards.

00:27:10: It wouldn't be funny If...I tried to get a bunch of guys to fuck my girlfriend and they were like no Why would?

00:27:16: why there is no hidden element?

00:27:19: So much humor speaking something that isn't expected or supposed to be spoken.

00:27:27: But the German version does without emphasizing the mystery right there, or the hiddenness of it.

00:27:35: Or not- The fact that its'nt supposed to be spoken?

00:27:37: It's just like they skip a step which is usually with a joke.

00:27:42: There's like a pause and you're like I know i'm not supposed make sexjoke but im gonna make a sexjook right now.

00:27:48: Does this makes sense?

00:27:49: I think so..I mean...the way jokes land or don't as you say, playing with the clear expectation that something's gonna happen and then you hold it back for a second when it happens regardless or what happened in slightly different way.

00:28:02: And I think a lot of all men type of humor certainly basically just works by saying we're doing inappropriate things and thinking this is enough to make it funny

00:28:18: from these early two thousands like ranch

00:28:20: culture

00:28:21: right?

00:28:21: Like jackass kind stuff In

00:28:24: a little bit.

00:28:25: Yeah, yeah.

00:28:25: and then this disclaimer that they run at the beginning of Turks.

00:28:28: This is all based on fact.

00:28:31: Is also that it's just okay?

00:28:33: It's ironic quote-unquote but That's just because you're saying the opposite Of What's true or what's appropriate in.

00:28:41: you think that's enough

00:28:42: right like let's assemble reverse.

00:28:50: But do you have like examples?

00:28:55: Because when I open my phone, and i'm sure that im not alone in this.

00:28:59: Im swamped with British or American comedy And idk if its Ricky Gervais or Louis CK Or Dave Chapelle.

00:29:13: There are so many famous comedians who also do transgressive stuff.

00:29:19: Well yeah they all got cancelled Like Louis C. K is the obvious parallel to this Christian woman case, right?

00:29:26: He was also doing all of these kind of transgressive borderline stuff in his show and then it turned out like he was also harassing women.

00:29:37: but what...

00:29:41: How German is

00:29:41: that?

00:29:42: Yeah okay so how German is this?

00:29:44: To me I think people are going to commit violence and harm against one another.

00:29:58: And the routes that, that violence takes like maybe culturally conditioned or socially conditioned right?

00:30:07: So if women... If patriarchy did not exist and women were the oppressors we would be doing something to men who oppressed them.

00:30:19: Who knows what it will.

00:30:20: Um, and like you know is the question I think that we were asking it's like.

00:30:26: Is there something German inherently German about the way this case has played out or about accusations against all men?

00:30:33: Or is this just like could happen anywhere?

00:30:38: what would i find Find About The Public Outcry It Has.

00:30:44: This Like Many German Men Spoke Up But A Very Common Reaction was, for example one that Sasha Lobo had in his podcast.

00:30:54: You know?

00:30:55: He mentioned it before he's doing with this wife and they're speaking as a couple And there are like both reassuring themselves That oh you would never do this to me but at the same time They sort of questioning The security of the couple saying Oh my god!

00:31:11: This happened In marriage.

00:31:14: It is so horrible To imagine that you could be Doing something Like this.

00:31:19: But of course I don't because I trust you.

00:31:21: And then Lobo goes on this sort of like a little bit of soul searching.

00:31:26: and yeah, we have to confront that is the monstrosity that inhabits all men in some way but I would never do it.

00:31:37: so no what I find dissatisfying about this kind reaction Is that A lot man are inclined when something becomes public to go and say, yes of course it's a problematic male behavior which is.

00:31:57: But then they like step further in saying this some sort of mail trait

00:32:04: that- We must all fight against every single

00:32:06: day.

00:32:06: Dangerously we have on each other end but I would never do it.

00:32:11: so both universalize or essentialize the specificity And they put themselves on the safe side, distancing themselves from actually murky

00:32:27: middle ground.

00:32:27: It's just same as the hashtag Not All Men

00:32:30: of The Old Man reality.

00:32:33: and what gets lost is that fine print Men will do harm to others.

00:32:40: That's absolutely sure.

00:32:42: and they have a propensity, you know To engage in destructive behavior towards women towards other also towards themselves.

00:32:49: And the question is what are the conditions for this like?

00:32:53: What kind of destructive behavior comes out of the conditions that

00:32:57: yes exactly

00:32:58: culture creates?

00:32:59: yeah, and In-in-in This case with Germany I mean it is significant that all men went on doing his shtick, playing his kind of like stereotypically male character well after me too for example.

00:33:14: I find that interesting

00:33:15: because it's taken so much longer to come here right?

00:33:19: Like this kind of reckoning with sexual violence or whatever.

00:33:24: my understanding is the German media and then German feminists are sort of why not more... Why is there no more activism?

00:33:33: No, I think there was activism and not as much.

00:33:36: But they were less spectacular... If we talk about Mitu in the fall of two thousand seventeen you know this better than i do There's like every day basically a

00:33:49: new case.

00:33:50: Either The New York Media World or Hollywood was accused of abusive behavior And so forth And there are fewer publicized cases at that time In Germany That is for sure.

00:34:01: Yeah, I also think this is like German culture.

00:34:06: Wait let's take Berlin.

00:34:08: we can bracket Berlin a little bit but i do think increasingly german culture it quite conservative or has kind of traditional values which then lead to not even repression.

00:34:25: We don't talk about everything, right?

00:34:28: And so like the way that the humor works or the way we were just arguing and it was postulating.

00:34:33: Like hypothesizing at the humor work is like... It's like blurting things out instead of creating a scene leading up to The Joke or leading up To The Revelation like version of sexual violence, which is mediated.

00:34:57: It's not physical violence though there are some allegations of physical violence in this couple but it's a slow motion car crash that is simultaneously perfectly out and the open but also desperately wants to be hidden.

00:35:15: you know what I mean?

00:35:16: There's this dual desire finally like express something, which is why this happened on the internet.

00:35:26: It's in public and he's allegedly contacting people who kind of know her right?

00:35:33: And one reason Shabiko was able to investigate it as they contacted... So basically, I think we should go back and say like one of the things he's alleged to have done is make a fake LinkedIn profile posing as Colleen.

00:35:47: And now Colleen has never had an LinkedIn profile.

00:35:50: I got one in twenty-twenty four so that i could take my identity back.

00:35:53: but um Olman isn't alleged to made a fake link at LinkedIn profile and contacted people they knew as couple including their insurance broker right?

00:36:01: That someone who wants caught, right?

00:36:05: It's not like super.

00:36:06: Like.

00:36:06: that's why I say it's quite right to say its repressed.

00:36:10: Its very on the surface of like.

00:36:13: please tell let me speak about it and i don't know if it is fair to say thats particularly German or that couldn't happen elsewhere because im sure they could but you can make an argument there something sort of unique about

00:36:35: it, right?

00:36:36: Hidden in plain sight.

00:36:38: Yeah yeah like I mean yes

00:36:42: as a German cultural place.

00:36:48: what's the result of the reckoning here?

00:36:51: legislation is changing.

00:36:53: i think they're very serious now creating laws that allow for more stringent prosecution digital violence as it's called.

00:37:08: So that's a political consequence, we're yet to see how Ullman you know.

00:37:15: if he one day is going to speak publicly again what Is He Going To Say?

00:37:20: Of course the case specific case against him will be now being brought in Potsdam As You Mentioned but culturally I don't Know What's Gonna Happen.

00:37:32: This Brand of Humor

00:37:34: I mean, it's like pretty... No.

00:37:40: In the US at least this brand of humor has just become more and right wing.

00:37:45: It is considered uncoofed unsophisticated.

00:37:50: Need that like.

00:38:03: it's not titillating to me.

00:38:05: Yeah, have some fucking shlubby guy be like vagina You know?

00:38:09: Like it's no funny like who cares?

00:38:12: But I think you know there are like huge groups of people.

00:38:16: um I would like to say that they're just men but probably women as well like the find is really funny because I think that they like.

00:38:24: Um i mean maybe it relates this like sort of version of repression or like feeling, you can't talk about things.

00:38:33: Or You Can't Talk About Your Sex or Bad Impostors You Have in this kind pressure that results in like this kind of outburst type stuff, right?

00:38:46: Like it's... In the

00:38:48: U.S.,

00:38:48: I mean, there is a whole woke humor conversation with The Right centered around the idea that left oppresses people and doesn't let them say anything or speak freely to express naughty ideas.

00:39:11: There is a desire to do that for reasons you could get into, it's not hard to understand.

00:39:17: I'm thinking back to this two thousand and twenty-four documentary Colleen did on the deep fake porn community.

00:39:24: And they chat like the reporters doing the documentary in Colleen herself.

00:39:29: They chat with bunch of people who

00:39:33: make Deep

00:39:34: Fake Porn.

00:39:38: So there is this online culture of anonymous people who engage in the stuff and it's clearly like A fetish.

00:39:47: Well, yeah and they just say one of them says it's an art hobby.

00:39:51: They don't even say its a fetish.

00:39:52: I mean clearly is the fetish.

00:39:53: but like one of their reporters asks... And

00:39:54: they revel in this sort technical proficiency Yeah!

00:39:58: Say

00:39:58: that oh no we're doing this because It's a technical challenge.

00:40:01: We want to have satisfaction with perfect product and so forth.

00:40:05: I don't know, online fetish culture.

00:40:10: that's going really a little bit off the rails.

00:40:13: Well

00:40:13: it is also quite antisocial

00:40:15: And its very anti-social if you're sitting in front of this screen and your satisfaction isn't sort of like these virtual worlds.

00:40:22: So there are also...I mean This was a conversation Also In The US but then..in this documentary That she made She interviewed several people who were victims Of Deepfake & AI porn.

00:40:32: One of them i can remember Who one of them says You Know She found Like Some People Who Are Making images of her.

00:40:38: And she says one of them was a pensioner, right?

00:40:40: Like just like an old guy who sits in his garden usually and it's... These are people that aren't integrated into society.

00:40:50: They're not kind of dramatic in cell way Just older people don't go out much Don't have many friends And now there is a thing on their phone that they can do all day.

00:41:02: Yeah, the parasocial aspect of it... It's kind-of exciting!

00:41:05: Like and it's a parasocial aspect right?

00:41:06: Because its.. They focus on these famous women that they see in maybe Resent like I'm sure for just very basic like misogynistic reasons.

00:41:13: they resent these like famous beautiful woman who are on TV um and they resent That they don't have access to them even though Of course no one has access To them except Their friends Uh, and like they can participate in society In a way that they completely control.

00:41:31: And actually the-in A Way That Like Takes Control Away From The Famous Women Who They Resent Right?

00:41:36: Yeah...In

00:41:37: Any Case With The German Political Class Is Now Doing Its Trying To Legislate Bring In Laws That Make A Lot Of Like Certain of These Things Illegal When They Pertain To Sexual Stuff.

00:41:52: I'm not saying that they shouldn't do it.

00:41:54: It's necessary to create the possibility to prosecute, but certainly there won't be a resolution for this

00:42:01: problem.".

00:42:04: You know what?

00:42:04: I would also like to say about Colleen Fernandez... She is quite upbeat and nice actually!

00:42:16: We were talking with Sasha in Yulia Lobo Podcasts false concern for the child and they're like, maybe she shouldn't have made it public because what about The Child?

00:42:26: And actually Colleen Fernandez at least on social media is acting very empowered.

00:42:33: She always has!

00:42:34: Also in this documentary, she introduces to that and still smiles... ...and makes faces but not crying or I'm a victim.

00:42:45: Even though you've done this horrible thing to me.

00:42:48: That's admirable.

00:42:51: And she's still going to like shows, She is doing normal Instagram type of stuff.

00:42:57: Like they're just doing normal things even though this huge news story has come out and I think that that Is a heartening development because during the Me Too era The women had go around and cry This whole.

00:43:13: if you are the victim of violence You have to go and cry until your story be like i'm so vulnerable.

00:43:20: then it reinforces what I believe are very problematic ideas about gender difference and inequalities.

00:43:26: actually that, i think ,are persistent in this German feminist stuff today which is like oh men are so bad and women are crying.

00:43:34: And Men Are So Bad and Women Are Crying!

00:43:36: It's much better to be like...I have been the victim of a horrible crime and fuck you.

00:43:42: why should I have to ruin my whole life because I was victimized?

00:43:46: You shouldn't.

00:43:49: Probably also was a process, of course for her to come.

00:43:52: To that point into the conclusion

00:43:56: what they don't

00:43:57: know we do and there's all sorts of things That We Don't Know About

00:44:02: Their Relationship Described as toxic.

00:44:05: right yeah but she Also Said to Dutch people that um that like This Abuse That She Alleges He Committed Was Like an Ultimately An Attempts to Control Her Right?

00:44:19: And by impersonating.

00:44:20: Yeah, this is what the Spiegel article also says that while he was going on record giving interviews and saying things like oh I think i'm a man all feminists would love to

00:44:32: have.

00:44:33: Exactly, Oman

00:44:35: said about himself.

00:44:37: but then in other hand apparently as was revealed body reporting He really mad at her for being outside of house.

00:44:47: So we don't, there's so many animals about his psychology or their couples' psychology.

00:44:52: Or dynamics that we do not know and can now of course speculate about.

00:44:56: but... Yeah I think ultimately it is very clear even when you watch this documentary she made like having quite disturbing experiences where at one point she talks to someone who was impersonating her And they send a picture herself in bed like a deep fake picture of her, looking cute and better or whatever.

00:45:16: And she almost starts crying.

00:45:17: but even so... She still is like that's not me you know?

00:45:21: She's really insistent-she will not let it stop her.

00:45:28: It'll affect her.

00:45:28: yeah!

00:45:29: Yeah..it will effect her.

00:45:31: But I think the thought was actually good development to see.

00:45:39: But

00:45:40: also has in way no choice.

00:45:42: She does she?

00:45:43: I mean, she could totally collapse.

00:45:45: He can have a nervous breakdown and like withdraw from the public eye.

00:45:47: She's rich doesn't need to work anymore Like she didn't you know?

00:45:50: She can let go stay with her.

00:45:52: You should.

00:45:52: there all sorts of things he could do And she certainly did not have to make this public year after it came out in life.

00:45:59: Yeah, and also, you know, I was reading just like googling around In October.

00:46:06: so before this story broke months six months ago She did like a little interview with Bilt or something and she said, oh I'm dating again.

00:46:16: Like iIm going on the dating app so im kind of interested.

00:46:19: I never do that when I was single.

00:46:20: it's too soon So you know...she gave this kinda peppy little interviewee about being single And how shes excited to date.

00:46:29: It doesn't seem we can not but at least publicly.

00:46:33: she is living her life which is good And I think there was a time when the feminist idea and the political, the political messaging Was that women needed to perform their suffering about this in order To get political legal rights injustice.

00:46:57: So like if you don't demonstrate That This has harmed you then it doesn't count as harm mm-hmm.

00:47:07: Now, I think or hope that like we have moved to a place where you can say no this is just objectively bad and We should see justice for it.

00:47:15: And there should be punishment for.

00:47:17: but the woman doesn't need to prove That by ruining her own life Yeah Right?

00:47:24: Or letting Her Life Be Ruined.

00:47:25: Thanks For Listening.

00:47:31: You Can Listen To More Episodes Of Airlift At BLNReview.de.

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00:47:49: This episode was produced by Caitlin Roberts with Nadjala Said.

00:47:52: I'm Lauren Euler See ya next time.