Biao Xiang on Lonely Deaths, Involution, and the Disappearance of the Nearby

00:00:00: If we miss somebody, uh...we may feel lonely.

00:00:05: But the profound loneliness is that we have no one to miss.

00:00:10: We don't miss anybody.

00:00:30: a city in southeastern China, he spent years studying migrant workers in Beijing before teaching at Oxford.

00:00:42: He now directs the Max Planck Institute for Social Anthropology in Halle Germany.

00:00:48: Over the last decade Biao's ideas have not only resonated within academia but also reached a whole generation of young people who use his terms to describe their experiences living.

00:00:59: In this conversation, my co-host Lauren Euler spoke with him about something that has become a universal and growing problem.

00:01:07: Loneliness!

00:01:09: They talk about why loneliness has been growing among working class... ...and how a generation of young people in China are resisting the conditions that drive loneliness today.

00:01:19: Towards the end of their conversations they also discuss an article that Biao recently co-authored for Belen Review on lonely deaths in Germany & Japan,... Here's Lauren Euler talking with Biao Cheng.

00:01:37: Do you feel like people are lonelier than before?

00:01:39: Or in general, I think so and it is not only in China but also globally And the reasons are multiple.

00:01:48: But one thing that i would like to emphasize Is we witness some groups who normally thought were not lonely like young people, like a labouring class and working-class people.

00:02:01: Now also experience loneliness because before we saw the loneliness is somehow for people very educated artists and philosophers but now it has become widespread.

00:02:12: And then you have people who should have many friends teenagers and Young adults and also people working in factories working in farms.

00:02:24: We thought it's a collective form of work.

00:02:27: You meet people all the time, you make things together so that we may have many other types of problems or hardships.

00:02:33: but loneliness is not in this list and now there are more.

00:02:37: So therefore there was widespread of loneliness.

00:02:39: What has happened over these last years?

00:02:44: What about society?

00:02:47: making middle class more isolated?

00:02:48: Making students more isolated?

00:02:51: what happens

00:02:51: here?

00:02:52: I think probably for three reasons.

00:02:54: Let's start with what happened.

00:02:56: the most recent, which of course it has to do is information technology and especially now AI.

00:03:03: And as a trick of AI is make you feel connected superficially while your don't have genuine communication in relationship or any persons right?

00:03:15: So therefore constantly always feel emotional need satisfied.

00:03:24: So therefore, you don't have the desire.

00:03:26: You don't see a need to go out and make an effort to invest time and energy in making friends.

00:03:33: This is I think most important reason why young adults and teenagers feel isolated And can live in isolation for long without noticing there's anything wrong.

00:03:47: So as a result, they end up in quite deep and profound sense of loneliness which manifests itself as depression or sometimes identification with some extreme fanatic ideas.

00:04:03: That is number one!

00:04:05: Second reason, I think is what we call this new liberal ideology which dominated the world after nineteen nineties.

00:04:13: Is water make middle-class and working class also more lonely?

00:04:17: Why's idea?

00:04:18: is that?

00:04:19: okay you know You are your own masters And then you can do anything as long as it will work hard and other people.

00:04:28: You need to work with them but fundamentally they're your competitors.

00:04:33: So everyone should their own way and move forward, don't waste time.

00:04:38: Don't waste energy and maximize your own benefit.

00:04:42: And treat other people as useful or convenient collaborators if it suits.

00:04:48: otherwise they are

00:04:48: competitors.".

00:04:50: Probably nobody will say that in everyday life but the feelings orientation of life is so much centered on your own success or survival?

00:04:59: There's a question of friendship relation really fade away And then you feel lonely.

00:05:05: I mean, that is very lonely.

00:05:17: and the third reason which for me is very important, related to neoliberalism in some extent.

00:05:24: It's after the nineteen nineties because of loss of socialist ideas and lost labor power meaning organized unions etc.

00:05:36: And also because a change over industry The demise of Fordism and the rise of post-Fordism as a paradigm how economic production was organized.

00:05:48: uh working class not only have less opportunities to work collectively in factories or in company but there's also the lost sense of pride.

00:06:02: and i wonder it seems to me that what you're saying is that, young people Middle-class people and also working class.

00:06:11: People are being kind of left behind right or or kind of lacking language for their experiences, right?

00:06:19: And a lot of these groups especially young people have identified with your work and you know come to appreciate some of your concepts.

00:06:27: Particularly I think the one of suspension.

00:06:29: could we talk a little bit about

00:06:31: that is idea of expansion came to me.

00:06:34: I would say it's not like the AI invented as a concept, you know?

00:06:38: It really come to me in nineteen ninety-four so that is long history.

00:06:43: and then in ninety four already... You can see in China new liberal reform started with working class pride no longer there.

00:06:51: So you have lots of rural urban migrants who work very hard at factories but they don't identify what are doing.

00:07:00: They feel this is just transient a moment.

00:07:03: So they work very hard in the factory, to save as quickly and possible so that we can move away from what it is doing right?

00:07:11: They are working extremely hard but don't identify with along joy, and then they constantly run into all kinds of problems.

00:07:23: Problems with their foreman in the workshop or problem with co-workers in the dormitory etc.

00:07:30: what do they do?

00:07:31: They keep moving changing jobs.

00:07:33: we call jump ships from one factory to another And ask about future everyone.

00:07:41: Many of them say, okay if I save enough money.

00:07:44: I will set up a little shop on my own so i'll become boss and no longer become worker.

00:07:49: So you look at their life conditions as they work extremely hard But that they keep moving from one factory to another yet They don't know when the future were arrived.

00:08:00: And what does it know is?

00:08:01: That there can no long go back To where do come from.

00:08:05: so then the image Come to me mind either like a hummingbird a hummingbird, you'll flap your wings fanatically very fast in order to stay still.

00:08:18: In the middle of air and you're worried.

00:08:21: if you slow down your wings just a little You will drop.

00:08:27: so you sustain yourself by the sense of fear anxiety.

00:08:30: And then you work hard but not sure where are going?

00:08:36: Then we look at their life.

00:08:39: They suspend lots of basic needs in life.

00:08:44: Friendship, relaxation family.

00:08:48: so they kind become very single-minded.

00:08:50: just focus on the work.

00:08:51: So often migrant workers demand overtime.

00:08:56: Demand because over time will pay a little more than usual hours and also want to maximize their savings.

00:09:02: The suspense is moment.

00:09:06: what's happening now Is extremely important because they want to use every minute to save more money.

00:09:14: But this moment that the self has no meaning Because every moment is something you wanted to step on in order to jump into the future, right?

00:09:23: Imagine why Chinese economy could develop so fast.

00:09:28: You have one billion people who suspend their is their social need for the moment.

00:09:35: and then you know sacrifice now, for the image in future.

00:09:39: Of course everyone works very hard as economy will grow but at the same time why lots of social problems are left and pushed aside not solved because people don't want to spend a lot of energy to confront that social problem here or there now For instance working relationship with workshop The condition of dormitory how the food in a canteen, quality of food and how they manage it etc.

00:10:05: People say okay you know I mean It's all bad but i should not spend time to be bothered by this because my goal is save more money and move on.

00:10:14: yeah so.

00:10:14: therefore You have the paradox On one hand society appear very dynamic developing very fast But on other hands many social issues are left unsolved.

00:10:25: I thought maybe we could talk too about the concept of involution, right?

00:10:29: Because i don't quite understand the concepts.

00:10:31: So I was wondering if you can explain

00:10:32: it.

00:10:33: Yeah, involution now will come back to a language question and involution is an unusual word that in English probably doesn't sound very technical...

00:10:43: Right!

00:10:44: It is, it almost requires like a physical gesture to explain right?

00:10:52: Like you're turning in on yourself.

00:10:54: Yeah yeah

00:10:54: so.

00:10:55: and then in Chinese I can somehow more direct kind of inward rolling.

00:11:00: You can imagine yourself rolling but they are not stretching your rolling inside.

00:11:07: So you intensify all effort And become burned out But without any real achievement.

00:11:14: but yet you cannot free yourself from this situation.

00:11:18: A quick example is like in schools, and everyone wants to have a higher score because the system encourages or punishes them unless they do that.

00:11:28: And everybody works very hard so as to improve their scores.

00:11:31: But since every one works harder your ranking still lags behind others.

00:11:36: So then we need to work harder for improving our rankings.

00:11:41: And then you know in this process, we are not learning anything.

00:11:45: You're just developing your skills for exam and the skill to earn scores.

00:11:51: You cannot find a way out of that because structure is such if you stop doing it will be dropped at bottom so that condition almost impossible very consuming pointless competition is the situation of involution.

00:12:11: And as a word, involution is not only a word to describe an objective condition.

00:12:18: structure out there and it's quite important is to describe the feeling you are inside.

00:12:25: You hate it!

00:12:26: You feel tired...you want to get out but don't know

00:12:30: how.

00:12:31: That in process- you see yourself as victim of this structure But also you'll see your self contributing To the system because you are working hard.

00:12:38: Yeah, I did it.

00:12:39: Yes So that is a why is at term and otherwise there's very banal Because as you say any like competition will easily become like that.

00:12:50: But in the Chinese context This word really brings individual experiences including very visceral feelings with structural condition With larger economy and make people think How why is a structure end up like this?

00:13:06: and also let make people think what should I do?

00:13:09: Yeah, so that i think it's quite important.

00:13:11: Right right you talk about um working So hard pointlessly right.

00:13:15: all lot of your concepts are about like staying still like You know But I wonder how you think we and I don't even know What I mean by Wee Do we mean the government?

00:13:23: do we mean Like social services like would be you Know?

00:13:25: do we Mean like media personalities?

00:13:28: you know public intellectuals

00:13:29: How

00:13:30: different values Are disseminated.

00:13:33: because when you read articles in the New York Times about what's happening in China, You often get quotes from government authorities and various kinds.

00:13:44: And it almost seems fake or like not a full story Because the quote of the government authority will always be something that you need to work harder To build the nation.

00:13:52: I wonder if this is convincing for people anymore because of the socialist, you know history or if as a country becomes more and more liberal.

00:14:04: And more kind of market based capitalistic does working hard for China like even appeal?

00:14:11: Because he would never say to an American person You need to work hard for America anymore.

00:14:16: That's only really Sort of poor people and sort of people who have nothing would buy that narrative, right?

00:14:25: So I'm just kind of interested.

00:14:26: like what you think.

00:14:28: How do you think people respond to this at this time or if this is convincing it all.

00:14:31: Yeah You may be surprised too To hear my response.

00:14:37: actually It probably works better than we expected?

00:14:41: really yeah.

00:14:42: And the couple reasons number one the current world situation, the rise of China and then technological breakthrough or just basic political system as a social life remain more less stable.

00:15:00: And politics is repressive but predictable compared to all the chaos in

00:15:08: U.S.,

00:15:10: disorientation confusion Europe.

00:15:14: So the national narrative in China is actually no longer simple propaganda, because young people now have access to all information and they do read what's happened.

00:15:28: I think that does give China a model more legitimacy than at least three or four years ago.

00:15:37: The COVID there was lots of critical views.

00:15:43: Then you ask, OK.

00:15:45: But these young people work so hard that they don't see any improvement in their life because of now the economic slowdown and rising unemployment.

00:15:56: And also their parents probably had a good life but now it's become stagnant as whole life.

00:16:02: I mean is there everyday lives?

00:16:03: They cannot see the improvements.

00:16:05: why should still buy this kind of grand narrative?

00:16:11: And for some people, and this is precisely they feel the need to identify themselves with something grand.

00:16:20: This has something do with loneliness.

00:16:22: actually because you have a good life.

00:16:37: That is starting point.

00:16:42: It's deeply internalized.

00:16:45: and now they come to a situation, yes I have worked hard but i haven't received the reward that was promised.

00:16:54: So for many people do feel disillusioned or disappointed.

00:16:58: But then you also had huge crisis in your mind.

00:17:01: so how should make sense my being?

00:17:06: If continue working hard I probably still don't see any benefit in my life.

00:17:12: So then, that is actually also a moment you feel very lonely because you no longer know how to connect yourself with the world.

00:17:22: You can see, you can survive.

00:17:24: But the world does not give me a response.

00:17:27: I'm really like shouting in an empty valley but it doesn't even echo.

00:17:33: That is sense of loneliness.

00:17:35: And at that time what do we do?

00:17:37: Raise your head to see either sun or not Or there's a star There are clouds and try identify yourself with them.

00:17:45: It may sound strange for people outside if they grow up.

00:17:51: You know, as I said the only thing you'll know is to be so committed and dedicated.

00:17:55: The tools idea that work hard they will benefit.

00:17:59: And when that become cracking?

00:18:01: Then then you see okay China in the world it's still doing decent job It's still rising and then you feel ok probably by identifying myself with something actually completed beyond my control Beyond my understanding even is a way that I at least feel connected to this world.

00:18:22: Okay, and then what about on the flip side, right?

00:18:25: So there's you know kind of identification with the nation.

00:18:28: Right but also at least there has been in the last few years a I mean i think The New York Times or other Western media described it almost as a counter-cultural narrative which is um lying flat.

00:18:39: yes yeah can we talk a little bit about it?

00:18:41: definitely what I said that this was uh nationalistic sentiment.

00:18:47: some people say young people are very pessimistic very optimistic about the national future.

00:18:56: Actually, they feel that National Optimism can compensate for personal pessimism.

00:19:02: so it is not for everybody.

00:19:05: actually I would say less than half of young people would feel their way.

00:19:12: The majority are still on the pessimistic side and do identify themselves to the sound.

00:19:20: And then these are people who have been talking about lying flat, laying flat is basically say okay I don't want work so hard i want quit.

00:19:30: very much actually resonates with greater resignation or quiet, quick movement in the

00:19:37: U.S.,

00:19:37: but here we have to qualify when people talk about lying flat and be aware of two things.

00:19:43: number one there's a lot of talks on how you lie flat.

00:19:50: I do lie flat last month because Southwest China, I'm not working for one month or two months.

00:19:59: But then afterwards come back to Shanghai Beijing and work hard again.

00:20:02: So that's a lot of talk lots of desire lots of sentiment expression but the not so much action.

00:20:09: It'll be mistaken to think like lots young people really stop working.

00:20:13: No That is not true.

00:20:14: Number Two when they say They are doing lying flat Is it not as if you cut off from mainstream economy?

00:20:22: often they mean that.

00:20:24: okay you know I used to work twelve hours a day in order to earn an salary which is minimum twenty thousand a month but now i like flat.

00:20:37: eight or six hours a day accepting my job, which offered me only eight thousand a month.

00:20:46: It's like I'm actually just being European right?

00:20:48: Yeah yeah oh

00:20:50: no they call european life flat

00:20:55: the continent!

00:20:55: I mean i would say that im lying flat all of the time.

00:20:57: you know Im working now but is it really working?

00:21:02: But does the government... The government, my understanding again from these New York Times or Western media articles is that the government has been concerned about this and they're also concerned about AI as replacement for friends in especially romantic relationships which kind of relates to this idea of lying flat.

00:21:21: Especially for young women right?

00:21:23: Because their like I can't be bothered to date these stupid boys.

00:21:27: so i'm just gonna lie flat.

00:21:29: Yeah,

00:21:31: actually.

00:21:31: So these two concerns in a way are contradictory to each other because from the government point of view okay you should continue working hard and not lie flat.

00:21:40: at that same time also actively engage in romantic relations because it will form family to give birth etc.

00:21:49: And I mean most people agree.

00:21:52: The main reason is so many young people are not dating and losing interest family life and romance is because they are really burned out.

00:22:04: So actually by and large in the broad picture, I would say lying flat it's good for bringing back love and romance.

00:22:12: And we also have evidence to see that people develop more friendship and romantic relations when not so kind of in the trade meals all the time.

00:22:24: And then the question is, why government are so worried about this?

00:22:28: somehow apparently quite a trivial matters.

00:22:32: The thinking is like that okay if people lie flat So who's going to build an economy?

00:22:39: But Chinese economy achieved such miraculous growth as I mentioned it because everyone kind of what lived in a situation or suspension, you know.

00:22:52: You work very hard single-mindedly and if people stop doing that would the China model lose its most important basis which is manpower contribution?

00:23:04: That is a misperception because Chinese economy has to change and have to move away from this labor intensive model.

00:23:13: And there's an idea to think, okay people have to work hard like before in order to sustain the growth.

00:23:20: I think it is a result of the fact that they are imprisoned by old paradigm of thinking.

00:23:30: If i can't I would persuade government out this way and then worry about A&Romance from government point view is mainly question of demographic crisis is a very sharp fall of fertility rate and marriage.

00:23:46: And this happened really quickly, right?

00:23:48: Like if you're my age I'm thirty-five.

00:23:51: You still remember like the one child policy where people were obsessed with talking about it.

00:23:55: Yes

00:23:56: Very sharp turn.

00:23:57: Of course we know that worldwide declining fertility Is common problem.

00:24:03: But what did make Chinese case special was speed.

00:24:07: China was special Before, for two things.

00:24:11: Number one is China's nearly universal marriage society.

00:24:16: The marriage rate is very high despite relatively a higher level of education and the participation in public work by women.

00:24:24: Because other societies once women's education levels increase their marriage rates will go down.

00:24:29: but China did not happen.

00:24:32: But suddenly, universal, near-universal marriage society experienced a very sharp decline of the marriage rate and there's worry over population now turned to deep anxiety about depopulation.

00:24:48: So then the question is, how to handle that?

00:24:51: And I think it's true.

00:24:54: The government has a point to say if we become so dependent on AI for our emotional need and of course further exacerbate problem isolation and automation of society and then there will be less opportunities even to meet people.

00:25:15: So that part is important, but in my view it's said the challenge of AI not only in a domain of romantic relations.

00:25:23: more broadly friendship has very fundamental sense.

00:25:28: you are connected

00:25:31: In the

00:25:31: U.S.,

00:25:31: I just wrote this piece about AI, boyfriends and A.I.

00:25:36: agency so i was thinking a lot about it in writing.

00:25:41: these apps people kind of like very quickly explain the popularity by using this phrase The Loneliness Epidemic And they treat it as kind of like an illness.

00:26:04: In keeping with that metaphor, my impulse is to say well no, loneliness has a symptom or something.

00:26:10: It's not the... You can't cure on its own.

00:26:16: Maybe you could treat at symptoms.

00:26:18: But I wonder If you know, is it even worth saying like what's the sickness?

00:26:25: Like Is It Capitalism.

00:26:26: You Know What is

00:26:28: it?

00:26:28: So I mean we know that loneliness is bad.

00:26:32: That's true because loneliness by definition is a sense of Because there's first hand First person feeling There's something wrong Its suffering isn't negative.

00:26:43: And then also We have research Demonstrate Equivalent to the damage of smoking fifteen cigarettes a day if you feel lonely and they these have all kinds of health consequences.

00:26:59: But then is it loneliness?

00:27:01: It itself just individual illness like its like like a smoking, You know as if there's behavior that you can be corrected right Or it simply because your lack of friends.

00:27:17: I I don't think so.

00:27:20: That, as i said earlier... So the loneliness itself is a symptom of something else because the profound sense of loneliness comes from it's lack of meaningful connection with the world and this is very common.

00:27:35: we go to big party We feel very lonely And probably when you go to pub or bar You will feel very long people and very lively music, everything is there.

00:27:51: But you don't see the point how I connect to the world or situations at that moment.

00:27:57: You feel very displace Very lonely And if we miss somebody We may feel lonely but profound loneliness means no one has to miss.

00:28:10: We don' t have anyone to miss because they do not see any concrete meaningful point.

00:28:18: connect you to the world, right?

00:28:21: And then how... I mean this situation is not individual behavior.

00:28:25: It's not an individual emotional orientation or anything.

00:28:29: it is created by a larger situation under which we work and study were brought up.

00:28:36: so that's related what we said earlier.

00:28:41: of course technology does play a role in.

00:28:45: And the second question about relation, if we treat that loneliness not only as a feeling or as behavior.

00:28:52: Question but there is general situation condition of being living and what AI does I think are the biggest problem for me.

00:29:01: AI is creating What i call the numbness towards loneliness.

00:29:06: Loneliness is bad, but it's also a part of life we cannot get rid off.

00:29:14: The problem is whether or not loneliness becomes severe and become chronic all the time.

00:29:20: And loneliness has its own function too because some psychologists have already compared loneliness to social hunger.

00:29:31: You know if you feel lonely, it's just like a you'll feel hungry and your reach out to make friends etc.

00:29:37: I would probably compare loneliness to pain.

00:29:41: Pain is extremely important for our survival because we will feel pain.

00:29:45: We know there something wrong.

00:29:46: So the alarm is triggered right?

00:29:50: And If they don't feel pain It is extremely dangerous For your well-being and even survival.

00:29:55: and what does AI do?

00:29:59: make you numb.

00:30:01: You can no longer sense the pain, even if you are losing meaningful connection with a world but don't know as there is not such thing.

00:30:14: why?

00:30:15: Because emotional need can be so easily instantly satisfied by AI.

00:30:22: your dopamine or all this chemical in brain can be manipulated by this kind of interaction with AI.

00:30:31: And then you, I mean previously you feel the pain and know something is wrong.

00:30:37: You start reading or seeking counseling Or do some thing.

00:30:42: Now you are very comfortable in that situation There's no meaningful connection With the world.

00:30:50: Then people say oh thats fine.

00:30:52: Then just live a situation as if constantly on drugs.

00:30:56: But no, and what we witness today is that people still search meaning.

00:31:02: In their condition the way they search a meaning often has very dangerous consequences.

00:31:09: People become depressed without clear causes And then you suddenly believe in some completely bizarre unbelievable conspiracy theory.

00:31:22: But for them, it makes a perfect sense.

00:31:24: You talk about the loss of the nearby right?

00:31:28: So can you explain a little bit what that means?

00:31:31: yeah

00:31:32: so lots on nearby.

00:31:32: actually first off is very visceral.

00:31:35: I mean uh you mentioned like language before because all my work i want to start with something.

00:31:40: when people see it People immediately know what it means in their life and then they will put themselves In the picture When They Think Disappearance of nearby basically means in big cities, China everything is vertical.

00:31:57: Most neighbors are not next to you or most neighbors up higher level and lower levels high rise buildings And the only moment that your neighbor met was at the lift.

00:32:11: Of course don't talk with anybody.

00:32:14: You avoid eye contact even though there's no connection in the lift and so you don't know.

00:32:25: who the neighbors are, you don't know who cleans rubbish and who's a person... The shop just immediately next to your condominium from where you buy breakfast every day.

00:32:37: Who they come from?

00:32:39: most of them migrants?

00:32:40: And how do they worry about their life

00:32:42: etc.?

00:32:43: You don't?

00:32:47: It's

00:32:50: kind of an insult on Western social media, which is you tell someone to touch grass.

00:32:56: Oh!

00:32:56: Do you know this?

00:32:56: No no...

00:32:57: Yeah

00:32:57: well it means basically go outside and literally touch grass because your create like spinning out either about yourself or the news on your phone.

00:33:06: right And its always said nicely You're doing this thing But ya'know easy to get into this kind of like mode which is you're either focused on yourself and your personal goals or the news, right?

00:33:22: Because when you focus on the news You kinda feel virtuous.

00:33:26: Like you are supposed know about what's going on in world if don't know it's going out there responsible And that could also affect your economic standing The war.

00:33:36: Are you personally guilty?

00:33:37: sometimes Do you do?

00:33:40: how feels I can't focus the guy at The Grocery Store right now, like I can't make conversation with my neighbor.

00:33:48: Do you ever do it?

00:33:50: Or do you force yourself to constantly touch grass?

00:33:53: Yeah!

00:33:54: But of course not so literally... talk to anybody passing in front of your own on the street downstairs.

00:34:09: So, that idea is really awareness and orientation.

00:34:14: so I mean i think it's a question what can we do with current situation?

00:34:19: It was so easily caught up into this situation that nearby somehow seems just boring and irrelevant I think for most people, young people especially in China where you have a term called the social phobia.

00:34:32: You know they just feel it's very burdensome and scary to talk to people.

00:34:36: And if people who are sociophobia They cannot talk or have kind of casual chat with anyone around them Then pay attention To start thinking okay now i live here.

00:34:51: This is like in China condominium.

00:34:53: About ninety percent of the buildings in China were built after nineteen ninety five.

00:34:58: It's amazing story.

00:35:01: and then it is all very short history, I mean who was here before?

00:35:06: What this land used to be for?

00:35:08: And just pay attention you receive some notification from... management of the condominium about how to manage water or rubbish, collect fees and pay a little more attention.

00:35:22: How this is organized?

00:35:24: And if you had someone coloring on street also go out there watch!

00:35:30: So

00:35:31: your saying Eve's drop

00:35:33: Yeah yeah it was very important.

00:35:35: I mean one thing we are missing now is gossip.

00:35:38: I think that question Gossip is replaced by rumor When we no longer have a gossip, or having lots of rumors.

00:35:46: And the gossip is extremely important because gossip is social with people who talk about something actually gives some evaluation and what's going on.

00:35:56: Rumor that we are messenger to someone else.

00:35:59: We just spread something like conspiracy theory already packaged But anyway, so gossip was very an important part in the near by.

00:36:08: So To do what?

00:36:10: What effect I think there to effect here.

00:36:13: Number one, if you pay more attention to the nearby and that you understand how society in a social life is created or maintained or constituted in rather complex way then it will be less likely so caught up by this abstract messages of certain ideological belief for emotion So just as a whole temperament will become more grounded.

00:36:43: I think that's probably the most important benefit, and then ideally you'll develop a kind of a more nearby perspective.

00:36:55: You know at the beginning of our conversation...you mentioned that loneliness used to be the purview.

00:37:02: like upper classes artists philosophers it was almost a luxury, right?

00:37:10: To be able to have time to feel lonely and alone.

00:37:15: And that does suggest it's true.

00:37:17: there is some kind of solitude positive or generative.

00:37:22: what do you think the difference between loneliness and solitude or whatever words want to use like good kind of loneliness bad kind

00:37:35: psychology and the philosophy.

00:37:38: And I think for me it's a most interesting distinguishing, an important distinction and the most relevant one today to this situation is made by Hannah Arendt right?

00:37:50: She said that loneliness not only different from solitude but opposite of solitude.

00:38:00: in everyday language we would say okay solitude calm, you be yourself your content then you become reflexive and which recharge energy.

00:38:15: Loneliness is a bit of suffering depressed unpleasant yearning something certain desires not being met but the solitude moment actually quite content or desire.

00:38:28: That is a very psychological description, but Hannah Arendt I think made them more political interpretation.

00:38:37: But also it's very experiential too.

00:38:41: She said the worst thing of being lonely Is that you can no longer be with yourself.

00:38:49: So loneliness?

00:38:52: Why?

00:38:52: Hannah Arender said The worst thing about loneliness was to make solitude impossible because now, as I said you have no one to miss.

00:39:03: You have no-one to watch and there is a no world out there anymore.

00:39:08: so therefore you haven't know yourself.

00:39:10: your self also evaporate And at this moment you cannot be with yourself.

00:39:21: politically dangerous, the profound sense of loneliness in addition to all those physical health conditions you mentioned is because when you cannot be with yourself You may instrumentalize your self and instrumentalized others In a quite extreme way.

00:39:43: You don't see yourself or other persons as human anymore, so you can take kind of quite extreme ideology or can't take up quite the extreme actions.

00:39:58: So the bottom line and again it's a common sense make U&I as human who can live together.

00:40:08: that to make our way

00:40:11: some of your researchers published an article in Berlin review about lonely deaths, people who are dying alone.

00:40:20: And I was wondering there's something about this topic that makes everyone kind of like immediately have an emotional reaction right?

00:40:29: But you want to.

00:40:33: In the Western context, you know dying alone is like.

00:40:36: maybe it's kind of used as an extreme example.

00:40:40: I don't want to die alone when women are getting a little bit older people or men too and they're single.

00:40:47: but nothing will happen to me.

00:40:52: And i wonder if your research on this has changed how you look at it or change, to have a look at loneliness in general changed.

00:41:01: How do I think about the consequences of loneliness?

00:41:03: Do you think that maybe lonely deaths will become more common yet

00:41:09: Great.

00:41:09: First of all, I'm very pleased to have this opportunity to publish the piece in Berlin Review and i must emphasize that is at a paper based on research done by Mika Elena and Annika.

00:41:25: it's...I am just junior partner writing and that was a very enjoyable experience as writing together.

00:41:33: And first you know you said loneliness.

00:41:37: people immediately feel quite extreme misfortune in life.

00:41:44: Certainly it's not only the West, I would say many other parts of world especially Asia.

00:41:49: you know loneliness has used to have a very strong stigma is really bad.

00:41:54: You must avoid at any cost.

00:41:58: First off i'm afraid that dying alone, what we talk about dying alone is not like the moment when you die and nobody around you.

00:42:10: The lonely death that we mentioned in our article referred to the phenomenon of a person who died without anyone's notice which situation lasts at least eight days or more And in many cases, of course it goes months or years.

00:42:33: So that kind is quite a serious version of Lonely Deaths.

00:42:39: so the one point we made in this article was how public perception about loneliness living alone and dying alone changed?

00:42:52: in Germany and Japan.

00:42:55: And we found actually one thing that makes a huge difference to these two societies, how perception changes is when you talk about the care work cleaning up the sin of lonely death because I said it takes at least one week for someone to discover.

00:43:15: according our condition.

00:43:16: then body starts decay already And then you create a smell and liquid, the whole apartment.

00:43:25: Who is going to come clean up all these things?

00:43:29: In Japan because they have very strict regulations about what kind of thing can be disposed with

00:43:36: etc.,

00:43:36: so someone has to go through all items left behind.

00:43:43: Since many people who died alone don't have relatives you know, organize some rituals for morning and etc.

00:43:51: So the care workers do lots of this work And we found out that actually many care workers founder is quite has a very strong positive aspect in their labor as they're working because then going through all items They understand new person and if your connected to them Perform lots of rituals for that person to say goodbye and etc.

00:44:17: Even though it's completely stranger.

00:44:20: So in Germany this type of care workers is presented quite differently.

00:44:25: Is a presented as an action of cleaning up or crime scene?

00:44:30: It somehow related the tools image of crime, right even though I mean so.

00:44:34: its have nothing do with the crime I'm just lonely deaths even not suicide.

00:44:39: So then it's kind of have a very different perception as the result of this different type narrative about care work.

00:44:51: The main point, and I'll come back to all what we discussed is loneliness connection and nearby To overcome this loneliness pandemic especially This profound sense of loneliness in feeling being denied by the world, this kind of paying attention to concrete effort like care workers.

00:45:16: You see that connection no matter how small it is actually can have a very positive

00:45:23: effect

00:45:24: in public

00:45:25: perception.".

00:45:48: That was Lauren Euler speaking with Biao Xiang.

00:45:50: Berlin Review recently published an essay.

00:45:53: You can read the essay Dying Alone at BLNreview.de or in our reader number seven, which will be published late June.

00:46:07: There's also a link to show notes.

00:46:11: If you like Airlift please consider subscribing to Berlin Review.

00:46:15: Our essays Criticism and Fiction from around the world started just five years ago.

00:46:21: Airlift is recorded in the studio of Jacobin Germany.

00:46:24: This episode was edited by Caitlin Roberts with Najla Said I'm Tobias Habakorn, editor for Berlin Review.

00:46:30: See you next time.